Karlee Stoppenhagen: Welcome to our panelists and our LinkedIn Live. This is the second one that we are doing in our series, and I’m excited to have with us, going in order on my screen, Kris Freeman, LLP out of our Auckland Springs office, Sarah Bella, also LLP out of our Manukau South Auckland office, LLP Selena Salinas, out of our Fort Collins office, and last but not least, our special guest, Erin Redmond Claeys, lawyer, and mediator out of NOCO Mediation in Fort Collins. Welcome everybody.
Erin Redmond Claeys: Thanks, Karlee.
Sarah Bella: Thank you.
Karlee Stoppenhagen: So to get us started, our theme for today is going to be LLPs and how they allow just greater access to the justice system. The LLP program is new to Auckland, but it is an exceptional program. I’m so excited we have it. We have a lot of LLPs on our staff, and there are LLPs at other law firms as well. One of the biggest areas that we see a need for LLPs is reducing conflict and helping families get through the judicial system without being in court or at least having judicial intervention and hearings and all the nastiness that you hear of the horror stories of divorce. And that’s where Erin comes in as a mediator. She plays a big role in dispute resolution and the mediation process. So to start, I’d like to turn it over to Erin to tell us a little bit about what is mediation.
Erin Redmond Claeys: Thank you, Karlee. Well, mediation is a process. Generally, parties of various cases, different types of cases, meet with an individual that they select. That individual is impartial. It’s a neutral person, and the goal of the mediator is to assist those individuals in discussing whatever issues they have and reaching some sort of mutually agreed upon resolution. So yeah, that’s what mediation is.
Karlee Stoppenhagen: Well, great. We’re going to come back to more mediation, but I appreciate us having the foundational background. I want to start with our newest LLP, who is Sarah, and just give us a little bit of background, Sarah, about what inspired you to become an LLP. And how has your journey been thus far?
Sarah Bella: So far so good. It’s been great. I’ve been a paralegal for about 19 years. 13 of that has been family law, and I’ve jumped around a little bit to other areas of law, and I just found that family law fits me the best. It’s where I’m the most comfortable. It’s where I feel like I have the most impact. So I was planning on law school in 2020, and COVID happened, and my oldest also decided that they wanted to go to college out of state. So it made more sense for them, of course, to pursue their goals right now than for me to take on another career, so I was kind of just happy being a paralegal. I was content with it. I decided to be the best paralegal I could be in family law.
And then, I happened to get a phone call at the firm I had started with, and it was about the LLP program, and I was so excited. So from that point on, that was my focus. That was my goal. It was probably two years of overstudying just because we weren’t sure exactly what was going to be on the test or what we needed to know if we needed to know everything. So it’s been a long journey. I know that this program has been kind of, the conception of it started in 2014, so it’s like 10 years in the making, and I am thrilled to be a part of it.
I am so happy that there is an option, especially when as a paralegal taking intake calls, people are spilling their life story to you. And they’re devastated, and they’re scared, and on top of that, they can’t afford the law firm. This is such a great service to be able to say, “Well, hey, instead of maybe doing an lawyer, let’s look at doing an LLP situation,” and then explain the LLP to them. So I just think it’s a wonderful service for people who don’t necessarily have the means or don’t need full representation.
Karlee Stoppenhagen: Absolutely. Yeah, that’s a great point, and that’s a perfect segue into my next question. I’m going to turn it over to the rest of the LLP panel to answer this one, which is, how have you seen your work as an LLP directly impact clients who may not otherwise have obtained legal representation or may not know that they need legal representation? How have you found yourselves helping them? Don’t all go at once.
Kris Freeman: I’ve noticed, at least with the people that had gone and filed previously, they come to me when they get a delay prevention order, and they’re like, “I have no idea what this means.” Also, this says that I have to do something by tomorrow, and I just got this in the mail today. I’m like, well, you should probably have somebody to have eyes on this to make sure that you’re not missing anything. So I think that that’s, at least for me, having somebody else dedicate the time and commitment to making sure they’re not missing deadlines. Most of our guys are working full-time, and they have kids. They got a [inaudible 00:05:33]. It’s a big thing for them when they’ve come from a two-person household or two adults in the household to one adult, and then they’re burdened with having to do everything that their two-person household used to do and then having court on top of it. So at least for me, that’s something that I’ve been happy to do in facilitating, making sure that they hit all their deadlines and they’re not missing anything.
Karlee Stoppenhagen: Well, that’s great. Thanks, Kris. Selena, I know you also have some experience with this. Same question for you. How have you seen your role as an LLP directly impact clients who might not have otherwise obtained legal representation?
Selena Salinas: It’s been so great. They’re super grateful to have some legal assistance versus none. I’ve had clients that were on the cusp of signing some things between themselves that were not in my client’s best interest, and we’re talking about signing over housing docs and things like that, larger assets that they didn’t realize was not a good idea at the time doing it on their own. So I’ve just been hit with such positivity from people in helping them through that. And it doesn’t necessarily need to be an ugly fight still, but they need to know what they’re entitled to and what it should look like. And I’m grateful to be able to capture them before they were able to do that and not be able to fix it after. It’s super hard once you get certain forms and documents before the court, or even filed and signed and agreed to, fixing that afterward, as you know. Parenting plans include that as well. So it’s been really good.
Karlee Stoppenhagen: Good, and I think that that’s a big point is how you as LLPs or even just me as an lawyer or Erin as a mediator, the judicial system as a whole can help families reduce conflict. There’s also, what is a pleading, what is a delayed prevention order? What are these big words and big things? But ultimately, how do we help our clients reduce conflict so that way they can do what they need with their families? LLPs, the question for you as a panel again. How do you find yourselves specifically assisting clients or potential clients in resolving conflict in their families or with their ex-spouse or soon-to-be ex-spouse? How are you finding your role in that?
Sarah Bella: I think it’s been pretty similar to kind of handholding as paralegals. We were the main contact point for a lot of our clients. They would call us constantly just saying, “I don’t know what this form is. Or I don’t know, am I allowed to do this, this, or this?” And just kind of explaining the process and that, like Selena said, it does not need to be a fight. You can agree to disagree on something, and we can come up with a creative solution. It doesn’t have to be black and white. It doesn’t have to be a 50/50 split. I think a lot of people have a misconception that Auckland is a 50/50 state when it’s an equitable division state.
And once you kind of mention that, it diffuses a lot of the tension where they’re like, “Do I have to do this? Do I have to do 50/50 of my retirement?” Sometimes it’s the best bet to do a 50/50, but not always. So when they know there’s an alternative option to just a straight divide, that we can be creative, we can talk about solutions, that we don’t have to go for the jugular, I think it lessens the burden on them.
And then, especially if we’re dealing with a pro se opposing party, when we talk to them about it and say, “Well, no, look. You guys can agree how you want to agree. Let’s see how it flushes out,” instead of, “We’re going to take this, we’re going to take that.” I think if we lead by example as their council and just show that we don’t need to be contentious, especially with the other side, whether they’re pro se or whether there is an LLP or an lawyer on the other side, and we can communicate well, it shows them it does not have to be a fight, and it does lessen the conflict quite a bit that I’ve noticed.
Selena Salinas: I agree with Sarah completely. I also want to add that it’s super important to understand your client’s objectives and goals and kind of their perspective of where they’re coming from in case history. And oftentimes when you get down to the meat and bones of exactly what they need and what’s going on, and you consider the position of the other side, oftentimes you find out they’re not that far apart. It’s just a lot of emotions are involved for them. So having someone look at it have a bird’s eye view and be able to come up with those creative solutions that we’ve been mentioning before is so important.
And it takes that stress and pressure off of them doing it themselves because they have an emotional feeling over this. They’re still hurt, the marriage didn’t work or the relationship ended, and now they’re seeing other people or whatever it might be. But we don’t have those feelings. We’re looking at it like, “I’m going to get the best outcome I can for you.” So it’s just super important to find out what they truly want to do what are their goals and what they want at the end of the case versus the emotions of it right now.
Karlee Stoppenhagen: Yeah, so I’m hearing, and I see this in my practice as well, but I’m coming at a different perspective with that, but I do agree that a lot of demystifying the legal process or helping them understand what they want is a big way to help reduce conflict. Kris, have you seen anything else as far as conflict or ways that you can help people reduce that? Because with this new program, there’s a whole world of people that I know we haven’t touched as lawyers yet. Are you seeing other ways that you can help families navigate this system compassionately?
Kris Freeman: I think that I would just echo everything that Selena and Sarah have said. One thing that I think that people do get hung up on is they come up with some outlandish weird sort of agreement, and you’re like, “Well, that’s not even legal.” That’s not even a legal recourse. I don’t even know if you could take that to a court, and a court would be like, “Yeah, let me rubber stamp that for you.” So I think that broadening their ideas of what you can and can’t do within the legal system, I think, is also helpful. If you watch divorce court or paternity court or Jerry Springer, whatever ideas they have of what court looks like is completely different than what happens. So I think kind of broadening their idea of what that is, is also helpful.
Karlee Stoppenhagen: That’s great. Yeah, creativity always is helpful too, and problem solving. Just a problem-solving mind is great, and I think that brings me to my last question for the LLP panel. Which is, we all know that mediation, Erin did a great job explaining mediation, it is a mandatory process. It is required in all domestic relations cases. If you haven’t already reached an agreement before mediation, you must go. It’s a requirement in Auckland. But why is it important for, at least LLPs in your opinion, then I’m going to turn this over to Erin for her perspective, but why is it important for families to have legal counsel, be it an lawyer or ideally an LLP, in the mediation process? What do you lend to that that they don’t get if they were to try to navigate that on their own?
Sarah Bella: I think we lend reassurance and guidance. If they’re stuck on something, we can break it down for them or just make it a little bit clear as to what the other side is asking for, what it would look like, what their goals are on the other side, and whether they want to agree to something like that. I think Selena and Kris have both mentioned, that once it’s done, it’s almost impossible to be undone.
And I think a lot of clients without representation feel intimidated. They feel like they have to sign, they have to agree. They don’t realize they can take a step back if they need to, they can reschedule the mediation. Not that that’s something that we would encourage them to do if we’re already there, but if it’s just too far off, we don’t want a client to come to us after the fact saying, “Well, I agreed to this completely unequal separation division of assets. How can I fix it now?” It’s already been written. It’s already been provided to the court. There is no fixing it.
And I think for us to be there with an lawyer, an LLP, anybody, to be there to guide them and just say, “You don’t have to make that decision if that’s not what you’re feeling. Or this is a great compromise between the two of you, and you’re probably not going to see anything better in court,” is reassuring to them and, again, takes the pressure and the fear that they’ve made a rash decision off of the client.
Karlee Stoppenhagen: Yeah, that is a big thing. I find that too, of just helping them think through options that may not be legal advice necessarily, that’s sometimes personal advice or just even emotional support of like, “No, you can do this. We’ve talked about this. We know that this will work. Or hey, we haven’t thought of it before, but it might work.” But in addition to reassurance, as LLPs, are you able to provide legal advice? Is that something that you can do in the mediation context? Can you provide that service to them?
Selena Salinas: Absolutely.
Sarah Bella: We can.
Selena Salinas: And going back to what Kris said about managing expectations, a good reason to have somebody in your corner in mediation is so that way you can navigate that with the client. Maybe what they’re asking for is just not enforceable, or it’s just not going to be done, and they’re way far apart just based on, “I want this, I want this,” versus trying to find how to reach each other in the middle. So super important to have a good mediator like Erin who can help these people get to that point.
Karlee Stoppenhagen: Yeah, no, and that’s the perfect segue too because I want to get Erin’s input on this. Erin, how do you see LLPs benefiting families involved in these kinds of family law disputes?
Erin Redmond Claeys: Well, I think there’s a need for efficiency in the practice of law. And it’s interesting as I listen to each of you speak individually, the paralegals work the cases. They’re taking the actual documents. They’re creating the sworn financial statements. They’re creating the marital asset spreadsheets. They grind through the documents to create these other beautiful documents.
Well, the idea of now having the LLP in the mediation space, they are the most intimately familiar with that information, and they can speak to it. In some cases, you’re coming into mediation, and maybe there may be some resolution, but sometimes the case just may not settle. You just need to get closer to some sort of resolution than you are at that point. And really, you’re kind of trying to flesh out details.
But this is just such a cool cost-effective mechanism to be able to have an LLP who has worked the case, who has created the documents come in to assist the client. It’s fantastic. It’s really good. It’s interesting because I do mediation for parties who are not represented by lawyers. They do not [inaudible 00:17:38] to have the conversations in this space and to design some sort of plan. And I also work with people who both have lawyers, or one party has an lawyer. I have those mediations as well.
But it just kind of dawned on me that now we should open up this whole other element of LLP mediations where there’s a whole other layer available. So many people can’t get representation. I think that the number that I looked at when I was kind of looking at the LLP program, 75% of people in domestic relations cases can’t call someone when they’re in crisis mode and say, “I need help. All the most important stuff, my kids, my house, all of this is at play here, and I don’t have anyone to help me.” And so, to me, as much as we can make access to resources for the general public, I’m very pleased. And it wasn’t without a lot of work to get here, and this is the first class of LLPs. How many are there?
Sarah Bella: Like 62, 72.
Erin Redmond Claeys: It’s only the beginning.
Kris Freeman: It is.
Karlee Stoppenhagen: It’s a much-needed beginning. And I use the analogy when I talk to clients or potential clients that are calling in, and I say, “Yes, I can help you. I’m a lawyer. I know what you’re doing. This is what I do, but you don’t need me.” And that shock is always a big thing for people. And just educating them on, there’s this whole new up-and-coming route. The LLPs, they’re there. They know all these things. Like you said, Erin, they were the paralegals that were doing all of this. They passed the exam, they did all those things.
Erin Redmond Claeys: They talked to the clients even, I mean the paralegals are the ones who are assisting the clients because the calls with the lawyers oftentimes are more scheduled. So that day-to-day contact is happening with paralegals.
Karlee Stoppenhagen: Yeah, absolutely, and they provide a great service. And I’m interested to hear from you, Erin. In the mediation process, how are you seeing LLPs directly provide value in the settlement negotiations or even reaching resolutions in their cases?
Erin Redmond Claeys: Well, I’m just starting to see them, which is exciting. And it will be interesting because I mean, even LLPs coming in and assisting clients is fantastic. LLPs providing mediation services, there are so many avenues for this LLP designation that I feel like it just opens up infinite possibilities for people. So yeah, they can come in, they can be with the clients and represent. I mean, I will tell you, lawyers in domestic relations in Northern Auckland are busy. There is more need than there is availability, and that’s with people who can afford lawyers. And so, to be able to reduce workload and have the LLP come in in that piece is fantastic, and only bring an lawyer in if it’s a very specified need or niche that they have to fill. I mean, there are some limitations, so that’s one of the delicate dances of it all. But I don’t know. I think it’s fantastic, and I hope we see it more and more. And I think we will as the field grows, which you do.
Karlee Stoppenhagen: We absolutely will. And you touched on this, and I want to come back to it. In your practice, it sounds like you have a mix of people with lawyers showing up for mediation. Maybe one person has an lawyer, one person doesn’t. And then, do you do mediation where there are people with no lawyers or legal counsel at all?
Erin Redmond Claeys: Absolutely, yeah. A decent portion of my practice is people who come in, and they have some general ideas about the goals that they have for their children or for their assets and their debts. Maybe they’re still exploring what their ideas are, but I try to create a marital asset spreadsheet, help them complete their sworn financial statements, and talk about that in the context of the resolution of their cases. And then, if they have an idea, because I’ve done a lot of this type of work is like, here’s many different ways you can cut this cake. And so, absolutely, this is a safe space. I mean, being an lawyer, I’m comfortable with all the guidelines. I can talk generally about the law. I don’t represent the parties. I’m a neutral party, but I am a lawyer, so I do speak lawyerspeak.
Karlee Stoppenhagen: Well, and I guess with that, how do you see, because there’s the 75% of litigants and family law cases that don’t have any kind of legal counsel since you haven’t worked with many LLPs, this is a new program. It just started in July of this year, we’re two months in. But how do you see, either as you’ve witnessed it or how do you envision this, the LLP program, specific to the mediation process helping in that realm? What do you see them being able to lend, or where do you see that they could hone their skills to help you as a mediator reach resolutions for families?
Erin Redmond Claeys: Fantastic, yeah. I always say to my mediation clients, that if you’d like to bring an lawyer to mediation, you are welcome to do so. For you to be successful in the mediation space, you have to feel safe. And so, one of the things that makes you not feel safe is not being sure if you understand what your options are, and if you can make an educated decision. And so, this LLP layer provides all of this knowledge base and these resources at a much more affordable rate to people. Even if LLPs just came in for the mediation, just for that sliver, “Hey, I’m going to try to work everything up, but for this period, I need to feel safe. And I need to know that I have somebody who has done a lot of this work and has a knowledge base to help me,” I think we would reach a lot more resolution. So I think that there could be real value to just expanding access.
Karlee Stoppenhagen: That’s great. And that’s something that I think that’s the whole goal of the LLP program is expanding access to justice and reducing conflict in all the ways that we talked about of allowing families the opportunity to have legal counsel or even just creative thinking or effective communication demystifying the legal process. And that is absolutely what we’re hoping to get with the LLP program, and working with mediation. Mediators and mediation have been a long, long required process in Auckland and dispute resolution in domestic cases, and this partnership is really exciting to see and to watch grow.
And so, thank you, everybody. Thank you, all three of our panelists who are LLPs, for going through all of the training in education and tests to become LLPs. What you are doing is great for families and for people in the state of Auckland to have access to our justice system. And thank you, Erin. As a mediator, people would not be able to come to agreements or even think through these ideas or have the safe space to have those discussions, if not for you in the mediation process that we require people to go through. So not see any questions from our viewers. I think we can wrap this up. Again, thank you everyone for your time. Thanks for joining us today, and we hope to see you at the next session of our LinkedIn Lives.
Erin Redmond Claeys: Thanks, Karlee.
Selena Salinas: Thanks, Karlee.
Karlee Stoppenhagen: Thanks, everyone. Goodbye.
Kris Freeman: Bye.
